The only recorded conversation between two giants of systems thinking — W. Edwards Deming and Russell Ackoff — moderated by clare-crawford-mason. Released as Deming Library Vol. 21 ("A Theory of a System for Educators and Managers") in 1993. The conversation reveals deep intellectual affinity between Deming's system-of-profound-knowledge and Ackoff's interactive planning and systems approach. Both men critique reductionist management, both emphasize the primacy of the system over its parts, and both argue that optimization of individual components sub-optimizes the whole. Their different vocabularies — Deming's statistical and epistemological, Ackoff's cybernetic and philosophical — illuminate the same insights from complementary angles. Full transcript freely available. PDF: http://ackoffcenter.blogs.com/files/dr.-ackoff-dr.-deming.pdf